June 24, 2025

Devin C. Hughes: Leading with Gratitude – Transforming Workplace Culture from the Inside Out

Devin C. Hughes: Leading with Gratitude – Transforming Workplace Culture from the Inside Out
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In this episode of Tech Me Seriously, Sarah Tenisi, CEO of TenisiTech and host of the show, interviews Devin C. Hughes, speaker, author, and culture strategist, who’s worked with clients ranging from Disney to the Department of Defense. Known for his TED-worthy humor and no-fluff delivery, Devin helps leaders build thriving, people-first cultures where trust, retention, and performance go hand in hand.

Together, Sarah and Devin explore how gratitude, emotional intelligence, and mindset shifts can transform workplace dynamics. They dig into the practical ways leaders can promote well-being, normalize taking time off, and create meaningful connections on their teams. Drawing from positive psychology and organizational research, Devin shares tools and real-life stories that show how kindness and clarity can drive serious business outcomes.

🎧 Listen for actionable strategies on building a culture of gratitude, boosting engagement, and creating workplaces where people—and profits—grow together.

👉 Connect with Devin:
Website: www.devinchughes.com
LinkedIn: Devin C. Hughes
Company: Devin C. Hughes Enterprises, LLC

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction to Tech Me Seriously
00:29 Meet Devin C. Hughes: Speaker, Author, and Workplace Culture Expert
01:31 The Importance of Gratitude at Work
03:06 Changing Workplace Norms and Culture
04:28 The Role of Leadership in Promoting Work-Life Balance
07:40 Devin's Journey and Passion for Workplace Culture
17:03 Embedding Wellness into Work Routines
25:31 The Importance of Celebrating Small Wins
27:38 The Power of Positive Affirmations
29:23 Assuming Positive Intent in Relationships
31:40 Creating a Culture of Connection
33:58 Addressing Workforce Engagement Challenges
36:42 The Role of Leaders in Fostering Engagement
46:21 Implementing a Gratitude Challenge
48:18 Personal Practices for Positivity

WEBVTT

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You are listening to Tech Me Seriously with Sarah Esi, CEO of ESI Tech.

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Candid conversations with Driven technology and business professionals who've always got something interesting to say.

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Hi, I'm Sarah Nessi, the host of Tech Me Seriously, and CEO and Founder of 10 Tech an IT services firm headquartered in California.

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Today I'm speaking with Devin c Hughes.

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Devon is a captivating speaker, author, and workplace culture expert.

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He helps leaders at all levels drive growth and engagement by aligning workplace culture with success.

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His unconventional and innovative views on business and leadership have attracted international attention.

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Devin's approach draws from the science of positive psychology, positive organizational research, appreciative inquiry, neuroscience mindset, and mindfulness.

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Welcome, Devin.

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Thank you so much for inviting me.

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I am super excited to be here.

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I am too.

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On this podcast, I've been focusing as much on leadership and kind of workplace culture as on technology over the last few years.

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And, I've Talked about kindness and how to develop a culture in which people thrive.

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And we were gonna talk about kindness, but at the last minute I thought, let's talk about.

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Something else that you often talk about.

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And so our topic today is finding gratitude at work.

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Inoculating your brain against stress and anxiety.

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So what does that mean?

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What are we talking about here?

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Yeah.

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So a couple things that come to mind.

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Number one if you live on earth I think you might suggest there's a lot of heaviness going on.

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And so it's like my beloved mother used to say when I was a child, Sarah, can't control the weather, but you can control how you show up in it.

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And there's a lot of bad weather now,

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Yeah.

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right?

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Just a lot of stuff.

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Heaviness, Gaza, Ukraine, socioeconomic, political, just stuff.

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But the one common denominator, again, the analogous would be how I show up.

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For the people that I care about.

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That's my family, my teams, and my, all of the above.

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Yep.

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said the point of that is if I can get my brain in a better place more days, I can support the people that need it.

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In other words, you cannot pour from an empty cup.

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Right.

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And so inoculate your brain is essentially, I wasn't given the tools and resources when I was a young lad.

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I wasn't, I didn't, you just didn't, weren't given it.

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But the science has caught up outta the last 35 years in attendance of positive psychology that there's a new discipline called human flourishing wellbeing.

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So the subtext of that,

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It feels like no one talked about any of this stuff.

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We're about the same generation and it feels as we move forward year to year, people are finally talking about this stuff.

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I don't know.

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It felt like there was a huge kind of upswing of talking about mindset and mindfulness and workplace culture after COVID.

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I don't know.

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Do you think that it is just changing generationally?

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You know, it's not punch a clock for 30 years, get a gold watch and walk away.

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Yeah, I think it has.

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Every generation changes and I think part of it was a stigma, right?

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If you said that you were exhausted or burnt out or tired, you know what the, we know what, suck it up.

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That's right.

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right.

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Yeah.

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And we use that language, man up.

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Put your big boy pants on.

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And so part of that, I grew up in that era, you didn't have feelings.

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Who cares about your feelings?

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All right.

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Get to work.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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part part of it was that, part of it was this tribal norm that you had to pay your dues,

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I.

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I'm totally guilty of the, put your time in.

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We've all been through this.

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Pay your dues.

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Yeah.

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So you go to a law firm, you gotta work 80 hours, you work on Wall Street, you gotta work on 80 hours.

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You work in a startup, you work in a tech company.

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Hey, you know it's gonna be a grind here.

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That's what we do.

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It's gonna be a grind.

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Yeah.

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And, and then we brag about it.

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Oh, Sarah, you work hard.

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Yeah.

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me tell you.

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I don't even take PTO.

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Okay, so I'm glad you said that because I've been socializing the conversation.

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I often will tell people what I'm talking about, you know, on any given week.

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And, um, I was talking to one of our employees about it and I said to him, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be asking Devin about what can employers do to help people inoculate their brain, but also I think this is as much focused on the individual, which is kind of fun.

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One of the things he said to me is, I feel like there's this culture of not.

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Like being expected to be around, be on PTO to take our PTO, which for me is like, the business leader is tough because we have five weeks of PTO.

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We absolutely want people It.

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Right?

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And we, we don't, I don't think we're reminding people enough, like maybe in our monthly all hands we should be saying, Hey, we really want you to take your time off.

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We want you to recharge, we want you to feel good.

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But I feel like we do a bunch of stuff, but it doesn't land for our team.

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And so.

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I'm also kind of excited, and we're gonna get to this a, a little bit later in the podcast, but how can, how can leaders sort of ingrain that in employees?

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Because I feel like we're doing this stuff, but people don't feel that way.

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So the easiest way, and I,

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Yeah.

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you the easiest way I've seen, what leaders talk about is

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Yeah.

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So if you're going on PTO and the VPs are going on PTO and they're sharing pictures and stories.

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It clearly sets the context that that's what we do around here.

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Yeah, we take time off to recharge.

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Yeah.

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We don't, we don't.

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There's nothing to be shameful of.

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I'm excited.

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and PTO could be a home vacation, it could be with staycation, it could be whatever.

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So the easy fix is just a normalized talking about it.

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The other one is you also have to create boundaries.

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Meaning you do take PTO.

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But I'm still checking email and still connected, right?

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We've been there, you, me, and others,

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my god.

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Yeah,

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right?

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just gonna say, I didn't take a vacation without working like legitimately.

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Until maybe eight years ago.

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I'm not even joking.

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Like I would, I would work while my family was asleep, and then I'd hang out with'em.

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It was atrocious.

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I'm over that.

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See that's the thing that we did.

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And I did the same thing.

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So I'd be in this like far away tropical place, getting up at four in the morning before everyone else got up.

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And I, and this is what I normalize, I'm just gonna get on email real quick'cause I don't want my inbox to get too much.

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And I'd crank out a couple hours and then a couple hours and then my family would see me and I don't want to be not present.

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So I close the laptop, sneak back up there maybe kind of throughout the day from the pool and then maybe before dinner.

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And I did that, the dance.

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like,

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Right.

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yes, and you're not alone.

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We all have been there.

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Yeah.

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I guess the point of that is I, it's situational, contextual, but if you can, and if someone's taking PTO, then they're off the grid.

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We will find a back channel.

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We will find a way to fill in, but we normalize it.

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I want, I don't want you half in, I want you all in on the PTO with your family.

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But those are the kind of conversations.

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I think to your point, we need to normalize and be more intentional about it and then let It's okay.

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Yeah.

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It's okay for us to take time away.

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So I wanna, before we're gonna go way more into that, but I wanna, before we get there, I wanna talk about, like more about you.

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Like how did you become, how did this become your focus area?

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Your area of focus, and something that you're super passionate about?

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I, I mean, couple things.

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One you know, I don't know people's backstories, but I think that matters.

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Yeah.

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up with much, My family.

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Neither parent went to college.

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Mm-hmm.

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education was my way out.

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Uh, I played college basketball, and so I was trying to get outta my circumstances.

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So I had a mindset I had to succeed because I just didn't want, I, I didn't wanna stay where I was.

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Yeah.

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forward that, so my dad was in the military and again, so I kind of understood culture and athletics and teams.

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And then intuitively I figured out when I was with my people, uh, and I was in a better place, I performed better.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like I was a better human being.

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Mm-hmm.

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to go, man, it's like a superpower.

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Like when I'm with my people, Sarah, and we're in that foxhole, it was just like a vibe.

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It's like I, I don't know how we're gonna figure it out, but we figure it out.

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And then I was in other cultures and it was like feel right, no trust, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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was like, okay, so I've been in good and bad.

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And so I went out in the workforce.

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I probably had 25 jobs.

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Literally I would just bounce around from job to job.

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'cause you don't know what you don't know.

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Yeah.

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at the time that seemed like a lot, but it gave me a really good sample size on leadership styles.

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Cultures, people, all of the above.

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And then, so I landed on two industries, high tech and biotech,

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Okay.

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which were, which were data-driven, fast growing cultures

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Mm-hmm.

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and bounced around a little bit.

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Startup, big company, et cetera.

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And then my, my last company got, uh, acquired and then I was like in an inflection point, met fast forward I was like, what do I wanna do next?

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And I did a talk at a rotary club.

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I know this is a lot.

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And someone in the back came up to me and said, Hey, you're unbelievable in front of the room.

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Have you ever thought about writing a a book?

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No.

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And boom, it happened like that 15 years ago.

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And so I took the totality of all my experience and said, you know what?

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Workplace culture plus science plus outcomes, and that's how my career started.

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I love it.

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I feel so I've read a couple of your books at this point,'cause I like to do my research and one of the things I feel like, I feel like you're an observer.

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I feel like you are a good observer.

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So it's definitely not by accident that you end up here.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I, you know, no, I don't know if I've, everyone's ever said that, but I do.

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I try to go in spaces as not the expert as a

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Yes.

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I mean, I don't know.

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I picked that up in reading.

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I don't know why.

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Yeah, and I, and I'm just very curious about human behavior.

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Mm-hmm.

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my presumption always with anybody, anybody I meet is that we're all good people,

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Same.

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right?

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And, uh, but we all have different experiences, different life stories, different triggers, different traumas, different stuff.

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And

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Yep.

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spaces, I'm like, okay, wow.

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What can I learn?

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This is interesting.

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How can I connect?

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What do we have in common?

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Just looking and observing and putting that all in context.

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And so, yeah, I mean, I, I think so.

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I'm, I just am fascinated with people.

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So do you think, I mean, I'm, I'm also fascinated with the idea that this is something new that organizations care about and are talking about.

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Do you think you could have had this kind of job, I don't know, 25 years ago?

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I.

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It would've been, I would, yeah, no, probably not.

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It would've been too woo woo.

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Exactly right.

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And what I think is so interesting about this is it was like, you know, I tell this story about how we lived in San Jose for 25 years and I working in high tech, same thing.

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I just had my head down.

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For all these years, and I'm telling you, COVID sort of snapped me out of it because it did, I think, allow a lot of us, and I know like people have been talking about this long before COVID certainly, but it just felt like, I don't know, like I feel like people got refocused on some of the balance.

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And I think that's why it's something that I'm so curious about and that I really want, like the team that I work with to feel like that their work can't be the only thing in their life.

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There's gotta be more,

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Yeah, and so I love that.

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I would also put this in context.

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This is why I'm so passionate about the work.

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We spend more time at work.

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In the aggregate hours

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right?

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than we spend anywhere else.

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Now, you, you might have heard me say this, but you know, again, I spend a lot of time, I, I, I, this is how my mind works.

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You, you look at the mortality tables, most of us have 80 summers.

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Okay?

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Hopefully we have a lot more.

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Summers, that's not that much, and most of us, at least 40 of those are at work.

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Put that in context.

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50% of our existence is at work, so why would I settle and lower the bar and give up 50% of my aggregate hours at a place with people that I can't be seen, heard, and valued?

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Yes.

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That's.

00:12:42.057 --> 00:12:46.557
that's new though, that people have started to draw those boundaries.

00:12:46.557 --> 00:12:57.567
And you know, it's kind of interesting when we talked about this idea that nobody takes PTO and I've worked 24 hours in a row and like those were the badges of like honor at work.

00:12:57.927 --> 00:13:01.496
And now I, I'll like coach my team, like, don't send an email after 6:00 PM.

00:13:02.037 --> 00:13:03.897
Like literally schedule to send.

00:13:03.897 --> 00:13:08.486
It's okay if you feel like you gotta tap out the emails, but don't send it until the next day.

00:13:08.486 --> 00:13:11.397
Like I just don't want, people think, and this is tough, right?

00:13:11.397 --> 00:13:23.427
We're in a services company, so it feels brave to say this, but I don't want people to think they can have our time when we should be with our families or with our hobbies or something else.

00:13:23.817 --> 00:13:25.466
Like should that feel brave?

00:13:25.902 --> 00:13:27.461
no, I mean it is brave and it.

00:13:27.912 --> 00:13:30.682
It's a maverick and to some people again.

00:13:30.802 --> 00:13:34.461
So I love that because, um, and I'll touch on your other question.

00:13:35.152 --> 00:13:38.422
The core values on the website don't mean anything unless you live them.

00:13:38.976 --> 00:13:39.966
That's living them.

00:13:40.111 --> 00:13:40.532
bright.

00:13:40.746 --> 00:13:46.116
talk about all that stuff, but if you do not actually operationalize them platitudes.

00:13:46.356 --> 00:13:58.147
I used to think that's all corporate values were because I worked at big companies and they would send everybody like those little cards that you could like tape up on your cube or in your office, and it was the corporate values.

00:13:58.642 --> 00:14:07.466
I legitimately never heard anybody manage against them, talk about them or live that saw or saw them living those values at work.

00:14:07.466 --> 00:14:08.157
So when.

00:14:08.476 --> 00:14:14.447
When I started thinking about 10 Tech and what we were gonna do in terms of core values, I kind of was like, what a joke.

00:14:15.527 --> 00:14:26.326
But the moment we figured out what our core values were gonna be, we did a whole day workshop on them and started talking about them managing with them, treating each other.

00:14:26.326 --> 00:14:28.697
The way that we talked about wanting to get treated.

00:14:28.697 --> 00:14:30.076
It got really clear.

00:14:30.792 --> 00:14:34.451
On who we wanted to work with, not and who we had on the team.

00:14:34.841 --> 00:14:37.631
And so it's so powerful if it's done right.

00:14:38.761 --> 00:14:39.091
Yeah.

00:14:39.091 --> 00:14:39.331
Yeah.

00:14:39.331 --> 00:14:40.201
No, absolutely.

00:14:40.201 --> 00:14:42.961
And people will see through when it's not done right.

00:14:42.961 --> 00:14:44.961
And, and I don't want to skip over your question.

00:14:44.961 --> 00:14:45.892
So has it changed?

00:14:45.892 --> 00:14:55.527
And when, I think the world changes pretty quick and you know, we got four or five generations in the workforce, and some of the younger generations have more access to information than we had.

00:14:55.636 --> 00:14:58.817
So they see that there's choices and they're well educated.

00:14:59.062 --> 00:15:00.201
They don't have to settle.

00:15:00.231 --> 00:15:15.111
And if you don't create a work-life balance, again, I love you said, you know, I'm not gonna go work for the man and work 32 years and get a ham and a watch and a cake, and then the person from the fourth floor to come down who I've never said hi to me, and then clap for me on my way out.

00:15:15.172 --> 00:15:16.481
No one Anymore.

00:15:16.687 --> 00:15:17.037
Right.

00:15:18.236 --> 00:15:25.317
And it feels like there was like this, okay, and we're gonna talk about gratitude, but it felt like there was a gratitude to have that type of stability.

00:15:26.756 --> 00:15:33.746
You know, like whenever I left a job and I really haven't left that many in my time, my dad would be so stressed out for me.

00:15:34.136 --> 00:15:41.157
'cause he worked in the same place for 30 years and he was like, what do you mean you're gonna leave a a, a well paying job?

00:15:41.307 --> 00:15:42.267
And I mean, oh my God.

00:15:42.267 --> 00:15:45.807
Don't even get me started on the reaction when I said I'm starting my own company.

00:15:46.182 --> 00:15:49.091
Because it's, it felt so scary, right?

00:15:49.091 --> 00:15:51.822
And so I think that's totally different now.

00:15:52.091 --> 00:15:54.971
Now people take mini retirements, right?

00:15:55.241 --> 00:15:57.701
Save a bunch of money and then go hang out for a few months.

00:15:57.731 --> 00:15:59.231
'cause they don't wanna get burned out.

00:16:00.011 --> 00:16:00.341
Yeah.

00:16:00.341 --> 00:16:04.251
And again, and, and so in, in that context, like, so, how do I put it?

00:16:04.381 --> 00:16:06.121
Well, one, there's a couple different things.

00:16:06.481 --> 00:16:08.192
One, less burnout, right?

00:16:08.192 --> 00:16:08.371
But

00:16:08.371 --> 00:16:08.611
Yeah.

00:16:08.672 --> 00:16:17.251
of the day, however you talk about it, if I can get your folks or anybody's team in a better place emotionally, more days,

00:16:17.687 --> 00:16:18.167
Yeah,

00:16:18.451 --> 00:16:19.052
they win.

00:16:19.756 --> 00:16:20.476
that's right.

00:16:20.657 --> 00:16:23.236
They win, so they better customer service,

00:16:23.657 --> 00:16:23.777
Yeah.

00:16:23.777 --> 00:16:25.486
engagement, better innovation.

00:16:25.486 --> 00:16:28.547
Ask engineers if you wanna innovate and build a new product.

00:16:29.027 --> 00:16:29.206
Yeah.

00:16:29.417 --> 00:16:37.067
If I say to you, Hey, you know, we need to build a new, you know, upgrade to this new software, you think we'd be better for negative, cynical, salty, pessimistic and cutthroat?

00:16:37.366 --> 00:16:43.307
Or we're of course, dude, they're like, of course not so intuitively they know it.

00:16:43.966 --> 00:16:52.067
So I'm just putting it, putting some, uh, some context around it and give them tools on how to operationalize it saying, it's not woo woo for woo woo's sake.

00:16:52.067 --> 00:16:52.876
That's okay.

00:16:53.537 --> 00:16:58.037
But it also is gonna drive outcomes, and collective.

00:16:59.147 --> 00:17:00.346
Yes, exactly.

00:17:00.527 --> 00:17:01.726
That's exactly right.

00:17:02.506 --> 00:17:03.346
exactly right.

00:17:04.126 --> 00:17:06.616
So let's talk about, okay, let's talk about this.

00:17:06.616 --> 00:17:13.247
So, when we talk about inoculating your brain against stress and anxiety, let's start with the individual first.

00:17:13.467 --> 00:17:21.777
So I'm an employee and I do like the, the focus on the individual too, because this would help them regardless of where they worked,

00:17:22.741 --> 00:17:28.017
Yeah, so again, that's kinda what I was talking about before is that a lot of us weren't given these tools.

00:17:28.311 --> 00:17:28.432
I.

00:17:28.557 --> 00:17:28.737
right?

00:17:29.037 --> 00:17:30.086
You wanna be happier.

00:17:30.086 --> 00:17:32.666
So, you know, it's perks, parties, food trucks, et cetera.

00:17:32.666 --> 00:17:36.717
Happiness, if you look at the research, and let's just go back to the research, happiness is a choice.

00:17:38.247 --> 00:17:41.517
Meaning that you get to choose on your mindset, how you wake up every single day.

00:17:41.586 --> 00:17:42.007
Mm-hmm.

00:17:42.116 --> 00:17:43.166
look for all the problems

00:17:43.346 --> 00:17:43.767
Mm-hmm.

00:17:43.826 --> 00:17:46.646
challenges, or you can look for the blessings, however you frame it.

00:17:46.646 --> 00:17:49.946
Now, does that mean every day is a pep rally or RIS day's?

00:17:49.946 --> 00:17:51.116
Bu bu day?

00:17:51.116 --> 00:17:51.446
No.

00:17:51.446 --> 00:17:52.586
Some days are harder than others.

00:17:53.457 --> 00:17:53.636
But

00:17:53.652 --> 00:17:53.711
Yeah.

00:17:53.787 --> 00:18:05.737
certainly some tools like gratitude and if you look at the research, if we're gonna get real specific, the happiest people on the planet they have happiness habits, and I call it in my work, happiness, hygiene.

00:18:06.207 --> 00:18:06.626
Mm-hmm.

00:18:06.696 --> 00:18:11.856
Just like you brush your teeth, you comb your hair, you do all the stuff you do well, no one, you don't schedule it.

00:18:12.487 --> 00:18:13.896
It's not on your Outlook calendar.

00:18:14.136 --> 00:18:16.446
You've been doing it for so long, it's just right.

00:18:16.741 --> 00:18:17.162
I tell

00:18:17.192 --> 00:18:17.251
Yeah.

00:18:17.432 --> 00:18:21.961
if you want to be in a better place and you wanna inoculate your breath, you need to have the same happiness habits.

00:18:22.142 --> 00:18:26.402
Now, I'm not suggesting it takes six hours, climb Mount Everest, run mountains.

00:18:26.402 --> 00:18:27.123
No, no, no, no.

00:18:27.422 --> 00:18:29.791
I'm talking three to 15 minutes.

00:18:30.662 --> 00:18:33.511
could you do every single day that's organic to you?

00:18:33.932 --> 00:18:34.951
They put you in a better place.

00:18:34.951 --> 00:18:36.271
Like I just, I'll give an example.

00:18:36.541 --> 00:18:38.942
I was just following some new, uh, research on music.

00:18:39.392 --> 00:18:41.832
Music's like, like candy to the brain, fires off

00:18:41.957 --> 00:18:42.186
Yes.

00:18:42.711 --> 00:18:44.152
Dopamine is when we win.

00:18:44.916 --> 00:18:48.487
So maybe it's you have five minute dance party or put your, your whatever.

00:18:48.487 --> 00:18:53.946
But what you do is you find micro moments every single day just to reboot and you're, you know, from tech, right?

00:18:54.366 --> 00:18:58.626
Occasionally, whatever operating system you have, occasionally you get a, you get an upgrade.

00:19:00.547 --> 00:19:03.396
Most of us who aren't doing this stuff, there's nothing wrong with you.

00:19:03.396 --> 00:19:05.586
You just need a little bit of a mindfulness upgrade.

00:19:06.576 --> 00:19:16.366
And if we just find things that you can do two to three minutes a day, gratitude, meditation, exercise, music, whatever it is and, and that's how you start to get on that path.

00:19:17.011 --> 00:19:23.961
You wrote about being out in the sunshine, and that one resonates with me because maybe, I don't know, three years ago.

00:19:24.592 --> 00:19:37.912
I thought about being outside more and I made it like a New Year's resolution and I read this stat and I'm, I wanna know, like I just, I think it's fun to have people guess this, but the average amount of time an American spends outside,

00:19:39.096 --> 00:19:39.666
Oof.

00:19:40.731 --> 00:19:45.201
I know this is mind blowing and I can't give you a source, so maybe, maybe I'm just making it up.

00:19:45.251 --> 00:19:46.326
I, I mean, 25%.

00:19:47.301 --> 00:19:56.061
15 minutes a day, which is equivalent to people going back and forth from their car to a business, to a house, to whatever.

00:19:56.451 --> 00:19:59.061
And so I thought, okay, I gotta get outside every day.

00:19:59.061 --> 00:20:01.102
I gotta get out in the sunshine.

00:20:01.102 --> 00:20:03.561
And you wrote about that and I think that's a really big one.

00:20:03.561 --> 00:20:08.692
And I'm, it's kind of a pet favorite of mine, or I redundant, it's a favorite of mine.

00:20:09.021 --> 00:20:11.662
And I keep telling my kids, I want you to just go sit outside.

00:20:11.662 --> 00:20:13.221
Like go get the sun on your face.

00:20:13.987 --> 00:20:15.517
So that feels like a big one to me.

00:20:15.517 --> 00:20:17.257
An easy one and a big one.

00:20:17.376 --> 00:20:17.882
Well, yeah.

00:20:17.886 --> 00:20:18.217
Yeah.

00:20:18.217 --> 00:20:20.797
I mean, it's also, so, and let's put it in the context of work.

00:20:21.291 --> 00:20:25.092
If you had people in an office, which a lot of people remote,

00:20:25.392 --> 00:20:25.751
Yep.

00:20:25.781 --> 00:20:27.912
again, you could do walking meetings,

00:20:28.571 --> 00:20:29.382
Love that.

00:20:29.531 --> 00:20:33.071
You can also do walking meetings when you're remote, most people have AirPods.

00:20:33.132 --> 00:20:35.951
Hey, for this meeting, we're gonna be very intentional.

00:20:36.041 --> 00:20:37.122
You're the leader.

00:20:37.511 --> 00:20:42.192
I want everybody outside, and I want you walking as we're talking.

00:20:42.717 --> 00:20:44.426
I love that idea.

00:20:44.787 --> 00:20:47.731
The next 10 Tech All Hands is gonna be a walking meeting.

00:20:47.932 --> 00:20:48.832
It's hilarious.

00:20:48.832 --> 00:20:55.642
And you, and you, you're hearing noises, but you can just, you'll watch the vibe just because people will be, this is amazing.

00:20:56.061 --> 00:20:56.301
Yeah.

00:20:56.301 --> 00:20:58.132
So we, you're multitasking all day long.

00:20:58.132 --> 00:20:58.942
Let's just walk and talk.

00:20:58.942 --> 00:21:03.981
So little things like that is what I'm talking about in terms of operationalizing some of these things.

00:21:04.642 --> 00:21:08.271
Then you're clearly telling people, we're not just talking about wellness at Tuni Tech.

00:21:08.271 --> 00:21:08.872
I care.

00:21:09.112 --> 00:21:11.571
I want you to get in your 15, 30 minutes a day.

00:21:12.291 --> 00:21:13.997
we're gonna actually embed it right into the work.

00:21:15.156 --> 00:21:25.406
That's the part that I was, that I was particularly interested in is how can people start embedding it for their employees, because I almost feel like it's a cycle, right?

00:21:25.406 --> 00:21:26.067
It's maybe a.

00:21:26.666 --> 00:21:32.156
Self-fulfilling prophecy because if you can do that for people at work, then maybe they start doing it for themselves.

00:21:32.457 --> 00:21:44.906
And it is this, like you said earlier, this normalization that, hey, we go on vacations and I was thinking about this, you know, we'll actually we have a thread for that, like vacation photos, but it's still not landing.

00:21:44.936 --> 00:21:46.767
People are still really stressed out.

00:21:46.916 --> 00:21:55.317
Even when I, when we're like, don't be stressed, no overtime, we have a no overtime policy and not just'cause we don't wanna spend the money on overtime, but because we don't believe.

00:21:55.646 --> 00:21:58.406
You should be doing overtime on a regular basis.

00:21:58.596 --> 00:22:00.307
Yeah, so I get it.

00:22:00.307 --> 00:22:11.326
I mean, I, you know, I'm not close enough to the team, but, uh, different people have different, put it this way, uh, there's also a lot of stigma and, and norms about how much to share, what not to share

00:22:11.436 --> 00:22:12.037
a tough one.

00:22:12.237 --> 00:22:17.747
And then some people are like, well, you know, I'll, you know, say you go let's just say one of the people on your team goes on these amazing vacations.

00:22:18.936 --> 00:22:21.997
And I, you know, I ended up going, that's, you know, I end up going to Temecula.

00:22:23.152 --> 00:22:23.571
Yeah.

00:22:23.616 --> 00:22:24.846
like, oh, you know what I mean?

00:22:24.846 --> 00:22:25.416
Like wow.

00:22:25.416 --> 00:22:29.586
I mean, do I really wanna show my, you know, my, all that like stuff starts, right?

00:22:30.142 --> 00:22:30.862
Okay.

00:22:30.951 --> 00:22:32.031
That's interesting.

00:22:32.196 --> 00:22:38.227
I've seen that we're like, well I didn't go to Costa Rica, Sarah, so, you know, my family and I, we just went to Corona Auto.

00:22:39.116 --> 00:22:44.067
So then it gets this like, kind of like this narrative, like mind's not worthy of sharing.

00:22:44.817 --> 00:22:49.076
seen that, but one way to do it again, I think on a, on a local level, right?

00:22:49.166 --> 00:22:52.317
Again, before you go wide, because I, I get a lot of leaders say this.

00:22:52.317 --> 00:22:54.717
I'm like, look, don't try to boil the ocean.

00:22:55.646 --> 00:23:02.067
Boil a pot of water on your team, your customer service team, six, seven people that you manage.

00:23:02.247 --> 00:23:03.987
How about you start sharing in the meeting?

00:23:04.586 --> 00:23:06.807
about you create space the first 10 minutes of the meeting?

00:23:07.872 --> 00:23:19.662
And you put up pictures on the slide on Zoom or teams or whatever you use and say, Hey guys, before we get started, we're gonna take a couple minutes and I just want everyone to come and share your best photo or something.

00:23:19.991 --> 00:23:24.422
But if it's not embedded into the work it tends not to happen.

00:23:25.531 --> 00:23:26.971
And that's the secret sauce.

00:23:26.971 --> 00:23:33.561
From a design thinking standpoint, just think of all the work routines that happen right now, meetings one-on-ones.

00:23:33.561 --> 00:23:35.422
Those are the things where you have to integrate it.

00:23:35.811 --> 00:23:38.991
Because that's clearly shows people, oh, this is what we do here.

00:23:39.666 --> 00:23:41.241
It's not just all business.

00:23:42.051 --> 00:23:42.922
yeah, it's just not all.

00:23:42.922 --> 00:23:45.021
'cause otherwise it just feels all transactional all the time.

00:23:45.336 --> 00:23:45.846
Yeah.

00:23:45.922 --> 00:23:48.412
already busy and now you're asking me to do more stuff.

00:23:48.652 --> 00:23:50.182
See, I don't want you to do more stuff.

00:23:50.182 --> 00:23:55.102
I'm just asking you to do the stuff you were doing and we're gonna give a little bit of a makeover like Chip and Joanna in Waco, Texas.

00:23:56.616 --> 00:23:56.946
Joanna.

00:23:58.356 --> 00:23:58.866
Yes.

00:23:58.896 --> 00:23:59.406
I mean, right.

00:23:59.406 --> 00:24:01.866
They don't, I mean, they just they don't burn the house down.

00:24:01.866 --> 00:24:03.696
They just get a little bit of an upgrade.

00:24:03.696 --> 00:24:05.616
And that's what, that's what I tell leaders.

00:24:06.307 --> 00:24:07.057
a little bit of an upgrade.

00:24:07.057 --> 00:24:13.567
So I don't wanna overtalk this, but I say this, how you start meetings and how you end meetings are really, really important.

00:24:14.287 --> 00:24:16.957
That's a low hanging fruit to integrate some of this stuff.

00:24:17.527 --> 00:24:20.227
Like for example, you, I never want to leave bad news.

00:24:20.977 --> 00:24:21.817
At the end of a meeting.

00:24:21.846 --> 00:24:24.457
I don't want people walking out like they got run over by an Amazon truck.

00:24:25.596 --> 00:24:26.017
Always,

00:24:26.106 --> 00:24:28.207
don't like talking about bad news at any of those.

00:24:28.207 --> 00:24:29.616
All staff meetings either.

00:24:30.037 --> 00:24:31.596
even on my team meetings though, if we're in

00:24:31.686 --> 00:24:31.926
Yeah.

00:24:32.136 --> 00:24:33.247
meeting and it's

00:24:33.277 --> 00:24:33.457
Yeah.

00:24:33.636 --> 00:24:39.336
and we're not, you know, we're gonna, this is hard and we gotta do better, but I'm gonna walk out that, you know what, we're gonna walk out excited.

00:24:40.326 --> 00:24:42.336
So again, there's just nuances like that.

00:24:42.336 --> 00:24:46.207
I think you can integrate it into the work itself that make people feel, you

00:24:46.326 --> 00:24:50.346
What's a good example of how to end a meeting so that it doesn't feel heavy?

00:24:50.346 --> 00:24:50.406
I.

00:24:50.953 --> 00:24:57.894
I mean, one easy one is, uh, for, well, that's even a, that's a different course, but like even meeting management, right?

00:24:57.894 --> 00:25:02.423
How we, because you've ever had meetings that just go on and on.

00:25:02.753 --> 00:25:04.824
So one of the things we talk about is what is it?

00:25:04.884 --> 00:25:06.564
We're really clear what the meeting is for.

00:25:06.614 --> 00:25:07.604
Are we brainstorming?

00:25:07.663 --> 00:25:08.983
Are we coming to an action?

00:25:09.374 --> 00:25:10.273
Is there a pre-read?

00:25:10.273 --> 00:25:17.503
So that's a whole meeting management, but one easy way to do that, to close out meetings is what did you learn what are you gonna do?

00:25:17.788 --> 00:25:18.959
What was the biggest takeaway?

00:25:19.169 --> 00:25:25.028
Or another one is what's your biggest, before we get outta here, and I know we talked about a lot of heavy stuff today in customer service.

00:25:25.449 --> 00:25:29.378
Hey, what's your, what was, if I had to ask you what's your, what was your biggest success story this week?

00:25:30.128 --> 00:25:31.028
What's your biggest win?

00:25:31.223 --> 00:25:33.263
Often, I don't think we talk about winning enough.

00:25:34.419 --> 00:25:36.969
Or maybe they're not small enough wins.

00:25:36.969 --> 00:25:39.124
Do you think people think that a win has to be big?

00:25:39.503 --> 00:25:41.903
Usually they think it has to be big, hairy and audacious.

00:25:42.013 --> 00:25:42.304
Yeah.

00:25:43.183 --> 00:25:43.473
Yeah.

00:25:43.493 --> 00:25:44.064
give you an example.

00:25:44.064 --> 00:25:45.804
I'm watching, I was watching basketball last night.

00:25:45.804 --> 00:25:47.124
NBA playoffs are on right now.

00:25:47.753 --> 00:25:52.493
Every time anybody made a great play, they got a fist bump or a high five or a smack on the butt.

00:25:52.564 --> 00:25:52.854
Yeah.

00:25:53.963 --> 00:25:57.023
And I'm like, so you tell me guys make seven to$8 million.

00:25:57.713 --> 00:25:59.213
gets a charge, he gets a rebound.

00:25:59.213 --> 00:26:00.233
He's getting why?

00:26:01.344 --> 00:26:02.094
'cause it's a win.

00:26:02.753 --> 00:26:03.413
Winning.

00:26:04.074 --> 00:26:04.644
You know what I mean?

00:26:04.644 --> 00:26:05.003
And so I,

00:26:05.048 --> 00:26:05.679
Yeah, it does.

00:26:05.679 --> 00:26:15.038
I mean it's, I think people talk about sports a lot because you can tell when a team has that vibe together, you can tell that they're gonna succeed.

00:26:15.038 --> 00:26:23.259
And you know, we talked about this a little bit last week, but we're big Warriors fans and they seem like they are so with each other.

00:26:23.679 --> 00:26:27.489
Doesn't matter if you're coming off the bench or if you're one of the starters, they love each other.

00:26:27.489 --> 00:26:28.689
At least that's what I see.

00:26:29.138 --> 00:26:30.638
But that is part of it, right?

00:26:30.638 --> 00:26:31.628
Is we celebrate the.

00:26:33.159 --> 00:26:35.199
No, I mean, that's culture with Steve Kerr, right?

00:26:35.199 --> 00:26:35.469
And it

00:26:35.638 --> 00:26:36.179
Oh my God.

00:26:36.394 --> 00:26:37.773
It starts and that's his vibe.

00:26:37.773 --> 00:26:44.554
And Steve Col, I mean, Steve Kerr from what I read, is really into the whole gratitude space and the, Just bleeds into everyone else.

00:26:44.554 --> 00:26:47.523
And so it is funny, I don't wanna talk about sports, but if I said

00:26:47.568 --> 00:26:47.749
Yeah,

00:26:47.794 --> 00:26:52.653
a, a group of people, do you think professional athletes play better when they feel better?

00:26:53.659 --> 00:26:54.138
of course.

00:26:54.693 --> 00:26:55.324
Of course.

00:26:55.324 --> 00:26:58.564
Or how about, let's take it, let's not take, how about kids in the classroom?

00:27:00.078 --> 00:27:00.949
Of course.

00:27:00.979 --> 00:27:08.328
And you know, the reason why I roll my eyes like that is'cause, you know, getting ready in the morning is really stressful, right?

00:27:08.328 --> 00:27:12.739
And like you have a five-year-old that doesn't wanna put on their shoes or whatever.

00:27:12.739 --> 00:27:15.838
And then, and then I was like the mom that was like yelling at her kids.

00:27:15.838 --> 00:27:22.199
'cause I had to do an hour commute and like immediately after that I would think, wow, I really set them up for success today.

00:27:22.199 --> 00:27:22.229
I.

00:27:24.088 --> 00:27:33.098
You know, and so yeah, you have to send people out into the world, you know, with a good, a good feeling, or else how are they gonna do well in the day.

00:27:33.594 --> 00:27:34.074
Yeah.

00:27:34.104 --> 00:27:34.663
And no.

00:27:34.663 --> 00:27:35.653
I mean, this is all good stuff.

00:27:35.653 --> 00:27:36.554
I mean, this is great conference.

00:27:36.554 --> 00:27:38.443
This is stuff that I didn't know and I learned later in life.

00:27:38.443 --> 00:27:39.644
I mean, I'll give you an example.

00:27:39.973 --> 00:27:40.723
Did you know that?

00:27:40.723 --> 00:27:48.693
I mean, humans human meanings, all of us have a negativity bias mean we're born with it, which means bad is stronger than good on the brain.

00:27:49.743 --> 00:27:50.104
Yeah.

00:27:50.344 --> 00:27:51.634
And some of that is some of that.

00:27:51.634 --> 00:27:52.923
So at first people are like, what do you mean?

00:27:52.923 --> 00:27:53.794
I, well think about it.

00:27:53.824 --> 00:27:55.624
The number one job of the brain is to keep you safe.

00:27:56.673 --> 00:27:57.423
Keep you alive.

00:27:57.634 --> 00:27:57.634
Mm-hmm.

00:27:57.692 --> 00:27:58.742
news is a threat.

00:27:59.942 --> 00:28:02.492
So we're hard wired to always environments.

00:28:02.492 --> 00:28:03.962
We just have like, you know what I mean?

00:28:03.962 --> 00:28:04.803
Like that.

00:28:05.222 --> 00:28:09.873
And so, uh, so what does that mean for work and culture and people?

00:28:10.093 --> 00:28:16.093
If you look at the recent data, you need three positive, three positives outweigh one negative.

00:28:16.990 --> 00:28:18.086
That's tough.

00:28:18.641 --> 00:28:18.941
Yeah.

00:28:18.941 --> 00:28:24.851
So yeah, it doesn't mean you walk around with a clipboard like, Hey Billy, I, I got one more today, but just think about it.

00:28:24.851 --> 00:28:37.840
If you just did your own sample research this week and looked about how many positive affirmations you've given out versus negative or neutral, and sometimes they're not even negative, Sarah, you just don't give them out at all.

00:28:37.840 --> 00:28:38.590
'cause we get busy.

00:28:39.895 --> 00:28:43.195
And so my point of it is, could we be, and it doesn't not, and I love what you said.

00:28:43.195 --> 00:28:45.296
It doesn't have to be big, hairy and audacious, just micro moments.

00:28:45.806 --> 00:28:46.105
Yeah.

00:28:46.105 --> 00:28:48.865
Sarah, I love what you said in the meeting yesterday.

00:28:49.165 --> 00:28:51.536
That was an unbelievable point and I didn't think about that.

00:28:52.346 --> 00:28:52.796
I love that.

00:28:52.796 --> 00:28:53.665
We're gonna need more of that.

00:28:53.665 --> 00:28:56.076
I want you make sure you follow up with me, that's all I'm talking about.

00:28:56.316 --> 00:28:56.645
Yeah.

00:28:56.826 --> 00:28:58.871
little affirmations, you'll letting people know they're a big deal.

00:29:00.215 --> 00:29:00.786
Yeah.

00:29:01.415 --> 00:29:03.756
I know, I'm like sitting here thinking, what are we doing?

00:29:03.756 --> 00:29:04.445
What do we need to do?

00:29:04.445 --> 00:29:12.365
More of that, um, idea that three positives outweigh one negative or it takes three positives to balance out the negative.

00:29:12.605 --> 00:29:20.586
That it, I'm glad to hear that that's science backed because I do feel like I always have like my guard up.

00:29:20.756 --> 00:29:21.865
Or I work on it.

00:29:21.865 --> 00:29:22.556
I'm working on it.

00:29:22.556 --> 00:29:22.976
Right.

00:29:23.276 --> 00:29:33.895
But like I remember, we do these exercises on our leadership team where we make these commitments to each other, and one of my commitments had to be, I'm going to assume positive intent.

00:29:34.685 --> 00:29:47.226
Which is weird because I feel like in my life I do, but there is this thing where this tendency to think that somebody's like not happy or isn't, you know, is mad at us or whatever.

00:29:47.226 --> 00:29:54.865
And I think that that's what you're getting at in that, that I of that idea that we're sort of just programmed that way, I feel relieved.

00:29:54.941 --> 00:30:00.851
No, no, I, I get it and see, I mean, we, most of us, me included, we are all hardwired based on experiences.

00:30:01.451 --> 00:30:12.881
So if someone says something or does something, our brain, just like a hard drive, spins a thousand miles an hour and defines a data point and goes, oh, that's that.

00:30:12.971 --> 00:30:24.060
And then they fill in the narrative, the gap and go, oh, you know, so, and so to your point, assuming positive intent is a really, really big one, it's, it is interesting when you talk about that, right?

00:30:24.060 --> 00:30:27.361
Because the relationship is really, really tight.

00:30:28.651 --> 00:30:32.580
We all, we kind of sort of give the person, we always kind of assume positive intent.

00:30:32.711 --> 00:30:34.060
Billy would never talk to me like that.

00:30:34.090 --> 00:30:35.230
Mary didn't mean that,

00:30:35.695 --> 00:30:36.175
True.

00:30:36.191 --> 00:30:45.651
I but if I don't have enough connective tissue to the person I don't know him that well, I've never really spent much time with him, then you'll start to fill in that, that little bit of friction in the relationship.

00:30:45.651 --> 00:30:47.421
So I mean, those are the things we talk about.

00:30:47.810 --> 00:30:55.020
You know, in terms of that, and I don't wanna make sure I skip what you said before, in terms of signaling that things like gratitude and all that stuff matters.

00:30:55.800 --> 00:30:57.361
Again, you are working remotely.

00:30:57.361 --> 00:30:58.171
It's more challenging.

00:30:58.171 --> 00:30:58.681
But again, if

00:30:58.730 --> 00:30:58.951
Yes.

00:30:58.951 --> 00:31:02.310
team meetings or one-on-ones, those are ripe for a makeover,

00:31:02.955 --> 00:31:03.435
Yeah.

00:31:04.020 --> 00:31:04.290
right?

00:31:04.290 --> 00:31:06.000
So how would you integrate some of this stuff?

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.060
Maybe I've had some people right now, Hey guys, before we get started here, maybe certain times of the year, more stressful, maybe then the month is stressful.

00:31:12.060 --> 00:31:13.980
Maybe there's certain points for whatever.

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:18.060
Maybe it's a new customer, maybe you're onboarding if you're a director, manager, whatever.

00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:20.580
And you know there's inflection points where the temperature goes up.

00:31:21.911 --> 00:31:23.951
Then why wouldn't you get ahead of it and say, Hey, you know what?

00:31:23.951 --> 00:31:25.421
Let's cause a pause here.

00:31:25.570 --> 00:31:26.651
I know this is heavy.

00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:35.980
We're gonna just take five minutes and I want everybody just to, we're gonna meditate, or we're gonna do something to integrate what I'm talking about into the work.

00:31:36.010 --> 00:31:40.066
And it also sends the signals that not tone deaf to the, is what's going on.

00:31:40.401 --> 00:31:53.931
That sort of brought to mind, you know, it's in onboarding's, a perfect example of where things feel a little a little crazy because you are forming what you know, that, um, what's that little, that saying that people say you're.

00:31:54.776 --> 00:31:57.566
Forming, storming, norming, and performing.

00:31:58.060 --> 00:31:58.661
Yeah.

00:31:58.675 --> 00:32:09.596
whenever you onboard either a new employee or a new company as a client, like we finally realized that, wait a minute, this is just part of that forming and storming.

00:32:10.046 --> 00:32:10.885
Phase, right?

00:32:10.885 --> 00:32:14.516
So we talk about the J curve of excitement or satisfaction.

00:32:14.546 --> 00:32:20.365
'cause usually like when people start with a new partner, like I'll use 10 Tech as an example, they're really excited.

00:32:20.516 --> 00:32:24.536
There's a lot of work that's gotta get done and not all that work is gonna be fun.

00:32:24.536 --> 00:32:30.086
So you go through that J curve of stress, whether it's a new project, and I think this applies to everyone really.

00:32:30.486 --> 00:32:33.546
And then you kind of get through that and you think, okay.

00:32:34.020 --> 00:32:35.550
Now we're norming.

00:32:35.611 --> 00:32:37.711
Right now It's all normal and we're performing.

00:32:38.040 --> 00:32:53.391
And I think that being able to say that out loud, because we've been in business a long time and I've been working in in IT service management for decades, and it was like, you never talked about that it was gonna be negative, but if you could call that out at the beginning, I feel like it's what you're saying.

00:32:53.391 --> 00:32:54.681
It's like I'm not tone deaf.

00:32:54.681 --> 00:32:55.310
I get it.

00:32:55.310 --> 00:33:00.651
So let's not, let's not worry if we go through a rough patch, it doesn't mean that we're gonna walk away from each other.

00:33:00.651 --> 00:33:02.510
It means that we're just getting there.

00:33:03.490 --> 00:33:04.625
See, I love that.

00:33:05.405 --> 00:33:06.246
I mean, I love that.

00:33:06.246 --> 00:33:08.046
Let's just, it is gonna, it's gonna be.

00:33:08.881 --> 00:33:09.101
It.

00:33:09.123 --> 00:33:13.573
The best, and again, I don't want to get off on these tangents, but the best people that do that are the military.

00:33:14.863 --> 00:33:16.393
'cause you put people in harm's way.

00:33:16.752 --> 00:33:24.972
So you say, look, this is gonna be heavy and it's gonna be hard there's gonna be some uncertainty, but we're built for this.

00:33:25.153 --> 00:33:26.022
We got a plan.

00:33:26.728 --> 00:33:29.157
we're gonna figure it out and we're gonna stop along the way.

00:33:29.367 --> 00:33:32.278
I think that level of candor is really important.

00:33:32.397 --> 00:33:35.758
Celebrate winning and progress is really important.

00:33:35.998 --> 00:33:40.077
Individual and aggregate progress, people can connect to that.

00:33:40.468 --> 00:33:43.377
And so again, I think that's, you know, that's part of that conversation.

00:33:43.377 --> 00:33:51.147
And then, you know, I don't want to dance around a little bit, but you talked earlier about some of the stuff going on about just the heaviness in the world.

00:33:52.093 --> 00:33:55.002
one, I mean, I look at data points about why people are struggling.

00:33:55.032 --> 00:33:57.492
Well, the, I don't know if you've seen the new Gallup data,

00:33:58.008 --> 00:33:58.228
Mm.

00:33:58.573 --> 00:34:06.982
but roughly according to Gallup, the state of, uh, work report, only 30% of the global workforce is engaged.

00:34:07.813 --> 00:34:27.753
I mean, I not to get you off point, but I read an article in The Atlantic yesterday about the job market's in trouble and we're trying to figure out, it's like college isn't, isn't helping people as much as it used to, and we both have college age kids and kids that are trying to figure it out and people don't feel engaged at work and AI is potentially impacting all this.

00:34:28.353 --> 00:34:30.793
It was scary to read about that stuff.

00:34:31.333 --> 00:34:45.373
And I mean, that, that kind of puts me in this spot where I feel like, okay, I gotta just focus on the good, but then is it like, I'm just hiding my head, so what are we, what are we supposed to do in, in when that is the reality of what's going on in the world.

00:34:45.635 --> 00:34:48.516
In terms of engagement or AI or just all of the

00:34:48.561 --> 00:34:49.505
Just the engagement.

00:34:49.626 --> 00:34:52.701
I mean, like you were saying that Gallup data is pretty stark.

00:34:53.181 --> 00:34:56.001
Yeah, so I mean, I just follow the data.

00:34:56.001 --> 00:34:58.641
I mean, you know, you could look at it certainly like, wow.

00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:04.161
Now if you look at the lion's share of that, most people are, well there's three buckets.

00:35:04.161 --> 00:35:08.360
There was engaged, not engaged and actively disengaged.

00:35:09.246 --> 00:35:09.965
Oh yeah,

00:35:10.197 --> 00:35:10.347
And

00:35:10.632 --> 00:35:10.813
yeah,

00:35:11.217 --> 00:35:11.847
disengaged.

00:35:11.847 --> 00:35:15.387
I think we've all been there, whether kind of toxic, disruptive.

00:35:16.032 --> 00:35:16.452
sure.

00:35:16.858 --> 00:35:22.947
roughly about 20% of the workforce is that 50% of the workforce is not destructive.

00:35:22.947 --> 00:35:24.628
They're just not engaged.

00:35:24.628 --> 00:35:27.327
And that doesn't mean they're not, they're just, eh.

00:35:27.987 --> 00:35:36.088
So if work starts at eight, they eight, they get off at five and they do fine, but you know, there's a lot more gas in that race car,

00:35:36.447 --> 00:35:41.128
Yeah, like they could be engaged and having a great time potentially.

00:35:41.157 --> 00:35:45.177
they could be offering up new ideas and be more participatory.

00:35:45.583 --> 00:35:48.913
And some, and so, and so, a lot of the folks are just kind of tapped out.

00:35:48.913 --> 00:35:52.302
So like, I'm here, it feels very, eh, kind of min.

00:35:53.172 --> 00:35:56.713
again, so that's one data point plus loneliness is at all time highs.

00:35:56.713 --> 00:35:58.092
You talked about burnout.

00:35:58.702 --> 00:36:05.663
But when I look at why I just, again, if you, if you bear with me for a second, uh, and you talked about it, church attendance is down,

00:36:06.623 --> 00:36:07.583
Yeah, we.

00:36:07.672 --> 00:36:09.143
volunteering is down.

00:36:10.353 --> 00:36:11.943
Family dinners are down.

00:36:12.737 --> 00:36:14.867
Having people over to the houses down.

00:36:15.867 --> 00:36:17.188
What do all those provide?

00:36:18.733 --> 00:36:19.512
Connection,

00:36:19.557 --> 00:36:20.217
Connection.

00:36:20.623 --> 00:36:21.643
human connection,

00:36:21.748 --> 00:36:29.728
Plus most people are remote at work or hybrid, and I'm not anti, but we don't gather.

00:36:30.193 --> 00:36:30.733
right.

00:36:31.077 --> 00:36:38.068
And so as much as it affords us on certain ways, I think we've lost a sense of community connection.

00:36:38.608 --> 00:36:39.208
Yeah.

00:36:39.275 --> 00:36:41.735
And when you do that, it feels very transactional.

00:36:42.846 --> 00:36:48.666
And so a leader's, I think responsibility at work is to kind of drive that meaning and connection.

00:36:49.056 --> 00:36:51.456
And actually that's kind of what I was reading this morning.

00:36:51.456 --> 00:36:55.925
Like there's this new study called the The Global Flourishing Study.

00:36:55.925 --> 00:36:57.275
And again, I, I.

00:36:57.831 --> 00:36:59.960
Just been reading the, reading The Atlantic.

00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:10.951
So you know, you guys, people can find these articles in there, but that's exactly what it said is put your close relationships with your families and friends kind of first, where possible.

00:37:10.951 --> 00:37:14.101
Don't use social media to talk to your family and friends.

00:37:14.101 --> 00:37:19.530
Like pick up the phone, go for a walk, go eat, break bread, right?

00:37:19.530 --> 00:37:20.340
Like something.

00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:22.771
Don't put technology between those relationships.

00:37:22.771 --> 00:37:25.831
And it's funny to be a tech person and be so I really, I.

00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.471
I really don't like social media at all.

00:37:28.891 --> 00:37:34.021
Like for the business maybe, but like for my personal life and my interactions with people, I try not to.

00:37:34.891 --> 00:37:37.501
And so it is about this lack of connection, right?

00:37:38.041 --> 00:37:38.431
Yeah.

00:37:38.431 --> 00:37:39.960
And so, so I get that a lot.

00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:41.251
Well, well, Devin, that's nice.

00:37:41.251 --> 00:37:42.811
I don't see people in the hallways anymore.

00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:43.860
I don't see people.

00:37:44.101 --> 00:37:45.360
Okay, great.

00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:45.751
I get it.

00:37:45.751 --> 00:37:47.911
Get people over the country, all over the West coast.

00:37:47.911 --> 00:37:48.570
I get it.

00:37:48.811 --> 00:37:49.141
Yeah.

00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.260
but so what, what do you do you do check in?

00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:55.440
Do you ever check in just to check in or is it always about the work?

00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:57.150
Yep.

00:37:57.210 --> 00:37:57.570
checking.

00:37:57.570 --> 00:37:57.960
Hey, bill.

00:37:57.990 --> 00:37:58.320
No, no.

00:37:58.320 --> 00:37:59.371
Forget the work my man.

00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:00.990
Let's just talk.

00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:01.740
Yeah.

00:38:01.786 --> 00:38:02.146
on?

00:38:02.206 --> 00:38:05.445
You know, I, and again, I'm a, I'm a devil in the details.

00:38:05.445 --> 00:38:10.820
Hey, last time we spoke, um, you mentioned that your daughter was was trying to get into, you know, da, da da, da.

00:38:10.856 --> 00:38:11.396
Did you get in?

00:38:11.396 --> 00:38:12.025
How's that going?

00:38:12.996 --> 00:38:15.786
These are little subtleties that again, we just take for granted.

00:38:15.786 --> 00:38:18.545
But again, you have four or five generations in the workforce.

00:38:18.905 --> 00:38:22.115
If you're not checking in, it's people signal that it doesn't matter.

00:38:23.376 --> 00:38:28.295
Do organizations need to have like a coach like you come in to do this?

00:38:28.295 --> 00:38:32.376
Because I feel like it might, it, I think it's hard to develop organically.

00:38:32.951 --> 00:38:34.240
I'm a little biased,

00:38:34.476 --> 00:38:34.715
I know.

00:38:34.715 --> 00:38:38.291
I just say like, should people hire you, Devin, what's going on?

00:38:38.456 --> 00:38:46.166
That's not what I meant, but like part of me feels like it's it as a leader in a company thinking, am I even equipped?

00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:51.371
To do this or do I need, do I need support in doing this Really?

00:38:51.641 --> 00:38:52.751
I mean, I, I think it's yes.

00:38:52.751 --> 00:38:54.880
N like, you know, I, I think certainly you can do it.

00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:58.061
The challenge is, could you learn it?

00:38:58.061 --> 00:38:58.541
Yeah.

00:38:58.570 --> 00:39:00.010
But that would take you years and that's not

00:39:00.130 --> 00:39:00.251
Yeah,

00:39:00.550 --> 00:39:01.331
expertise.

00:39:01.481 --> 00:39:01.900
exactly.

00:39:02.650 --> 00:39:03.070
That's right.

00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:06.311
So you mean Well, you don't do well again, just like, I know I should eat right.

00:39:06.311 --> 00:39:06.971
And exercise.

00:39:08.530 --> 00:39:11.231
But that doesn't mean so and so a couple things.

00:39:11.231 --> 00:39:14.590
I think a coach does help like me is that one, one, I get it.

00:39:15.641 --> 00:39:18.971
I can, uh, give you bite sized chunks to transform behavior.

00:39:19.690 --> 00:39:23.800
Like I'm not the academic who comes in and gives you a bunch of Venn diagrams and

00:39:24.061 --> 00:39:24.460
Yeah.

00:39:24.615 --> 00:39:26.385
In the real world, I don't have time for all that.

00:39:26.445 --> 00:39:26.896
You know what I mean?

00:39:26.896 --> 00:39:33.706
Like it's I give you real world tools, real world, and these are tools that you can operationalize this week.

00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:36.731
And then figure out where we want to go.

00:39:36.731 --> 00:39:40.181
The other thing is, I think I'll just say this, Sarah Depe, you know, each team's different.

00:39:40.541 --> 00:39:44.530
You might have a sales team, different vibe, engineering team, customer service team.

00:39:44.740 --> 00:39:48.400
The different managers got a different vibe in introvert, extrovert.

00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:50.800
And I don't have a ones stop shop.

00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:55.240
I gotta meet the manager where they are, where do they want to go with the team?

00:39:55.541 --> 00:39:57.940
Do we need to put out some fires maybe?

00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.101
Where do we wanna be aspirationally, where do you want the team?

00:40:01.550 --> 00:40:06.081
And here's some tools around the culture to help build out what I'm talking about.

00:40:06.690 --> 00:40:10.440
And then, you know, along the way we do it in the way that bite-sized chunks, but I want'em to succeed.

00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:11.010
So, yeah.

00:40:11.766 --> 00:40:22.715
So if people aren't focused on helping their team sort of avoid burnout and fostering an attitude of gratitude, what's like the worst that happens?

00:40:22.775 --> 00:40:25.085
You have any horror stories you could, you could share?

00:40:25.085 --> 00:40:25.115
I.

00:40:25.590 --> 00:40:30.311
Yeah, I mean the, the Gallup data clearly shows one that people just check out.

00:40:30.590 --> 00:40:32.871
I mean, have a lot of people burned out, stressed out.

00:40:33.740 --> 00:40:34.460
cetera.

00:40:34.521 --> 00:40:36.681
The angry, salty, negative.

00:40:36.740 --> 00:40:42.951
I mean, when I hear language, oh my God, Billy's so negative and so toxic a lot of cases.

00:40:42.951 --> 00:40:47.150
It's not that Billy's whatever he is, or married, we've just normalized it.

00:40:47.481 --> 00:40:50.681
One of the ones that I see the worst is what two things I'll say.

00:40:51.460 --> 00:40:56.400
is called performance punishment, and that's a, that's a I coin that.

00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:01.561
What that means is if Sarah, you and I are working on a team, right, and say there's a team of us of seven or eight.

00:41:01.846 --> 00:41:03.525
And you probably have seen this in your career.

00:41:04.306 --> 00:41:12.315
just assume that, um, you and I always find a way to get the work done and other people don't, and our boss really needs something to get done.

00:41:12.315 --> 00:41:13.275
Who do you think he's gonna give it to?

00:41:14.431 --> 00:41:16.306
We are gonna get it'cause we're amazing.

00:41:17.085 --> 00:41:17.476
Yeah.

00:41:17.655 --> 00:41:18.615
I see that a lot.

00:41:18.646 --> 00:41:18.976
I call it

00:41:19.005 --> 00:41:19.246
Yeah.

00:41:19.396 --> 00:41:19.876
punishment.

00:41:19.876 --> 00:41:23.010
So you'll burn, you'll burn your high performers out Because

00:41:23.626 --> 00:41:25.126
That happens a lot in it.

00:41:25.126 --> 00:41:26.056
I gotta say,

00:41:26.190 --> 00:41:27.271
always happens in it.

00:41:27.451 --> 00:41:30.061
'cause you'll go to your money person because you know

00:41:30.161 --> 00:41:31.371
they just are so good.

00:41:32.161 --> 00:41:43.101
and so we burn, unintentionally we burn some of our best folks out and then they're looking to the left or right Mary's over here on ES PN or Facebook or like, why am I, right?

00:41:43.161 --> 00:41:44.240
So that's one horror story.

00:41:44.271 --> 00:41:51.050
I mean, the other one is in terms of just the level of just man that you create in a culture where people are just like.

00:41:51.965 --> 00:41:52.686
Whatever.

00:41:53.030 --> 00:41:56.150
I know it makes me, I really don't wanna have that kind of culture.

00:41:56.150 --> 00:41:58.731
Like when you say that, I'm like, ah, I don't want that.

00:41:58.731 --> 00:42:00.411
My hair sort of lights on fire.

00:42:01.146 --> 00:42:01.655
Yeah,

00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.431
think people want that to be their culture.

00:42:04.617 --> 00:42:10.547
No, but most people really haven't had a really hard look at what their culture is, so I, I, I have a frame or a canvas that I use.

00:42:10.577 --> 00:42:11.867
I'm not overly prescriptive.

00:42:11.867 --> 00:42:14.117
I have some, some buckets that I use.

00:42:14.838 --> 00:42:24.228
these are just buckets, like for example, psychological safety behaviors, norms, unwritten rules, how we meetings and just help people say, how do we rebuild the culture from the ground up?

00:42:24.228 --> 00:42:25.038
Just like a house.

00:42:25.097 --> 00:42:30.047
And I was kidding when I used Chip and Joanna, but it is a, some ways it's analogous,

00:42:30.148 --> 00:42:30.568
Mm-hmm.

00:42:30.797 --> 00:42:32.088
We're not gonna burn the house down.

00:42:32.088 --> 00:42:35.777
It's just the world's changing and what are we gonna do to just upgrade it?

00:42:36.407 --> 00:42:41.177
But to your point earlier, if the leader doesn't change their behavior, then nothing changes.

00:42:42.083 --> 00:42:42.483
Yeah.

00:42:43.143 --> 00:42:50.432
And then, okay, so horror stories, so that, that point of you're gonna burn out your highest performers performance punishment.

00:42:50.463 --> 00:42:53.913
That's, um, that's a big takeaway for me at least.

00:42:53.913 --> 00:42:58.083
So on the other hand, if you focus on this stuff what are the success stories?

00:42:58.083 --> 00:43:01.773
I mean, I assume happier customers, happier employees, like.

00:43:02.358 --> 00:43:06.557
Yeah, I mean I've got a success stories, but I think my mo, the one that I'm most proud about, I

00:43:07.007 --> 00:43:24.108
Mm-hmm.

00:43:24.242 --> 00:43:32.163
Socioeconomically not well, you know, kind of that, you know, district where you are like, mm, no, no.

00:43:32.748 --> 00:43:33.288
Yeah.

00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:34.751
Listening to this knows.

00:43:35.021 --> 00:43:39.371
That wherever you live and you have small kids, the primary, right?

00:43:39.775 --> 00:43:41.126
Reason you buy or try

00:43:41.981 --> 00:43:42.490
Yes.

00:43:42.521 --> 00:43:44.971
Yeah so this was the school district you didn't want to go to.

00:43:44.971 --> 00:43:52.621
So fast forward here, I had a very progressive superintendent said, we don't have budget, we don't have resources, we don't have affluence.

00:43:53.550 --> 00:43:56.641
I can control or influence how my staff shows up,

00:43:56.971 --> 00:43:57.601
That's right.

00:43:58.110 --> 00:44:02.880
my staff, my teachers, my paraprofessionals, my special ed.

00:44:04.065 --> 00:44:08.295
and so I say all that to tell you that they, A CT scores went up.

00:44:08.295 --> 00:44:14.476
A CT went up from 17 to 22 in less than two years,

00:44:14.701 --> 00:44:15.331
Wow.

00:44:15.675 --> 00:44:24.556
suspensions went down, classroom incidents went down, fooling around on the bus went down, attendance and school went up.

00:44:24.916 --> 00:44:27.166
And the only different was culture and climate.

00:44:28.710 --> 00:44:31.456
I know it's so powerful and I feel like people are.

00:44:31.621 --> 00:44:32.340
Still.

00:44:32.521 --> 00:44:42.510
I mean, I think, I think it's catching on like we talked about, but I think that, you know, if they, if, if everybody started thinking about how do they show up in these environments, right?

00:44:42.510 --> 00:44:45.030
With, you know, it's particularly working with children.

00:44:45.391 --> 00:44:59.791
I saw this video online and it was like this principal that was like high five and everybody, and you know, hugging people and telling, you know, just you could tell this guy was walking the halls to encourage the student body and it was like.

00:45:00.315 --> 00:45:01.695
All schools should be like that.

00:45:01.695 --> 00:45:03.286
And I thought, I thought yes.

00:45:03.826 --> 00:45:16.485
Because if you start young and you teach people about mindset and kids about mindset and kids about the choice to determine how they show up, like you could see how things like, we wouldn't even be having this conversation

00:45:17.190 --> 00:45:18.150
No, we wouldn't.

00:45:18.150 --> 00:45:18.300
You're

00:45:18.525 --> 00:45:19.215
just be there.

00:45:19.215 --> 00:45:19.755
Right.

00:45:20.565 --> 00:45:22.905
Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I, I think you're right.

00:45:22.905 --> 00:45:29.286
And, and so I mean, I tell people that bef you're the energy, the vibe you give off, the energy you bring into the room.

00:45:29.286 --> 00:45:30.965
We pick it up before you even say a word

00:45:31.425 --> 00:45:31.896
Yep.

00:45:33.036 --> 00:45:34.445
and you say, well, that's not fair.

00:45:34.835 --> 00:45:35.255
Okay?

00:45:35.255 --> 00:45:36.425
It is what it is.

00:45:36.695 --> 00:45:37.056
Yeah.

00:45:37.266 --> 00:45:44.945
And so, and I, I'm, I don't, you don't need to be a Southern Baptist preacher or a motivational speaker, but pick your phone, put your phone away, say good morning.

00:45:45.246 --> 00:45:48.485
Hello, friendly, all that connected stuff to the brain.

00:45:48.485 --> 00:45:56.536
It matters'cause we are social animals and we know that, but we wanna have connection with people and just doing that more intentionally is a really big deal.

00:45:58.206 --> 00:46:13.025
So Devin, I feel like you've given at least me a lot to think about and I think, you know, my big takeaway is to find ways to drive connection and meaning through little things at work will help improve the team culture.

00:46:13.030 --> 00:46:20.726
And so I really appreciate you coming to chat with me about this stuff and I, I'm hoping that people get some value out of being nicer people at work.

00:46:21.590 --> 00:46:25.311
Yeah, so I've got a challenge for you because I.

00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:26.811
Challenges here.

00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:27.170
Okay.

00:46:27.411 --> 00:46:31.911
I know that I, you know, the short time I've known you, mediocrity is not part of the playbook for you.

00:46:32.240 --> 00:46:32.780
Nope.

00:46:32.931 --> 00:46:34.911
You didn't come this far to come this far,

00:46:35.715 --> 00:46:36.005
Okay.

00:46:36.561 --> 00:46:37.041
right?

00:46:37.070 --> 00:46:37.280
Yeah.

00:46:37.496 --> 00:46:37.786
Okay.

00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:38.240
know what I mean?

00:46:38.240 --> 00:46:38.360
Like,

00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:39.561
Now I'm nervous.

00:46:39.561 --> 00:46:40.731
Now I'm nervous.

00:46:40.940 --> 00:46:43.041
So we're, we're, you know, we don't, I don't wanna talk.

00:46:43.130 --> 00:46:44.360
That's like my mama used to say.

00:46:44.420 --> 00:46:46.340
Don't talk about it, be about it.

00:46:46.385 --> 00:46:46.416
Okay.

00:46:46.476 --> 00:46:47.226
the challenge.

00:46:48.005 --> 00:46:52.115
want you to start a 30 day gratitude challenge with your leadership team.

00:46:53.226 --> 00:46:53.945
I love it.

00:46:54.036 --> 00:46:54.365
All right.

00:46:54.365 --> 00:46:56.436
And you're gonna start, I don't know, today, tomorrow.

00:46:56.436 --> 00:46:59.106
And you're gonna give'em a little bit of context and say, Hey, you know what?

00:46:59.465 --> 00:47:01.146
We're gonna have that for the month of May.

00:47:01.505 --> 00:47:03.666
'cause, by the way, may is Mental Health Awareness Month.

00:47:04.206 --> 00:47:06.501
May is my favorite month, by the way, so.

00:47:06.726 --> 00:47:16.550
So you could frame it around mental health awareness or not, but you say, starting today for the next 30 days, I want all of us, including me, we're gonna find one thing that we're grateful for.

00:47:18.021 --> 00:47:21.860
It could be personal or professional, and then you're gonna be very intentional.

00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:30.320
And then you're gonna be, you could share it, not share it, but I want you to, again, just a signal to everybody and that's 30 different things you are grateful for in the month of May.

00:47:31.331 --> 00:47:31.806
I love it.

00:47:31.806 --> 00:47:32.016
Okay.

00:47:32.016 --> 00:47:33.545
I'm up for that challenge.

00:47:34.085 --> 00:47:35.076
I'm up for that.

00:47:35.226 --> 00:47:35.346
I.

00:47:35.391 --> 00:47:38.960
then, and then when you have team meetings or one-on-ones, I want you to bring it up.

00:47:38.990 --> 00:47:40.280
Hey, by the way, it's day eight.

00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:41.481
How we doing?

00:47:41.630 --> 00:47:42.380
What's going on?

00:47:42.590 --> 00:47:45.141
It would just be interesting for you to hear people.

00:47:46.340 --> 00:47:47.690
Socializing gratitude.

00:47:47.690 --> 00:47:48.411
What they're, and it's

00:47:48.541 --> 00:47:48.550
I.

00:47:48.590 --> 00:47:52.431
take the conversations and a place like, oh my God, I didn't even know you did that.

00:47:52.701 --> 00:48:04.320
And you know what you're doing to me, you're trying to, uh, what is interesting about this is'cause, you know, I've been reading about keeping a gratitude journal and that was in one of your books about really focusing on those few things a day to kind of build this.

00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:11.590
And so the challenge is helpful because now I might actually do it and actually take steps to put it in, into play.

00:48:11.590 --> 00:48:17.351
So this is exciting and I'll be sure to tell you how that works out for the team in 30 days.

00:48:18.215 --> 00:48:18.476
Yeah.

00:48:18.476 --> 00:48:20.905
Well, I'm, do I have time to share with you one more thing on a

00:48:21.061 --> 00:48:22.635
Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:22.856 --> 00:48:32.186
Something that I do on a personal level with my family is I have in my phone on my notes section, I have it titled, good Things Are Always Happening to Me.

00:48:33.025 --> 00:48:38.005
That's the title, and I purposely find something every day that's good.

00:48:38.155 --> 00:48:38.635
Personally,

00:48:39.706 --> 00:48:40.306
I love that.

00:48:41.126 --> 00:48:42.416
just a little thing like, again, these are

00:48:42.521 --> 00:48:43.210
I love that.

00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:54.280
That's that good things, negative things that we were talking about, the positive and negative things and the I the re, the example that always comes to my mind is if somebody goes, oh wow, you look really nice today.

00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:56.860
And I know we're not even supposed to say that to each other anymore.

00:48:57.101 --> 00:48:58.960
You don't even believe that anymore.

00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:05.471
You're much more in your head about how you feel about yourself than you know what other people are saying to you.

00:49:05.771 --> 00:49:06.820
You gotta hear it a lot.

00:49:07.001 --> 00:49:09.311
So I like this idea that good things are happening.

00:49:09.340 --> 00:49:11.050
You keep a list of those good things.

00:49:11.411 --> 00:49:17.530
And what happens is see the, you'll start to scan for them after a while if you get in the habit and you'll start to just make a little bit of a note.

00:49:17.860 --> 00:49:23.170
Lastly, I'll say this, I don't even say to people anymore, and it's not anything PC about, Hey, you look really nice today.

00:49:23.170 --> 00:49:25.690
You know what I say, you look so happy today.

00:49:26.231 --> 00:49:26.860
Nice.

00:49:26.860 --> 00:49:28.090
That's even better.

00:49:28.150 --> 00:49:29.920
That is a better way to say it.

00:49:30.231 --> 00:49:30.831
You know what I mean?

00:49:30.831 --> 00:49:32.126
And you'll watch people go, oh, I do.

00:49:32.721 --> 00:49:33.831
But God, you look so happy.

00:49:33.831 --> 00:49:34.371
I love it.

00:49:34.371 --> 00:49:35.510
You're making me feel good.

00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:36.800
Everybody's always heard.

00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:38.121
This one, you look tired.

00:49:38.900 --> 00:49:39.590
Yes,

00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:40.251
You're like,

00:49:40.251 --> 00:49:41.150
exhausted,

00:49:41.451 --> 00:49:41.900
yeah.

00:49:41.990 --> 00:49:42.650
wrong.

00:49:42.681 --> 00:49:42.831
Well,

00:49:42.951 --> 00:49:43.340
Yeah.

00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.190
How about you look a, you look happy and I love it.

00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:48.201
So either way, those are a couple things to think about.

00:49:48.201 --> 00:49:48.231
I,

00:49:48.501 --> 00:49:49.311
I love it.

00:49:49.610 --> 00:49:50.780
Well, thanks so much, Devin.

00:49:50.780 --> 00:49:51.891
This has been super fun.

00:49:51.891 --> 00:49:52.635
I knew it would be

00:49:53.630 --> 00:49:54.650
well, thanks for having me.

00:49:54.650 --> 00:49:55.295
I appreciate it.

00:49:55.300 --> 00:49:56.541
It went by really, really fast.

00:49:56.541 --> 00:49:57.681
It was a great conversation.

00:49:58.251 --> 00:49:58.851
awesome.

00:49:59.161 --> 00:50:00.061
We'll do it again.

00:50:00.601 --> 00:50:01.141
All right.